Between the UK backyard boat builders, John's yahoo forum and people who have replied to this blog - I now have a huge amount of things to think about. Below is the advice I've been given so far. THANK YOU EVERYONE!
Hi Steve,
I think all of your problems would be solved if you had a small heat source inside Arwen. An old-fashioned 60-watt light bulb would do, a small ceramic heater with a little fan and a thermostat would be better. There is also something called a "Goldenrod" that is a little low wattage heater that might be a little safer than a light bulb. The idea is that you keep the inside of Arwen a little warmer than the outside temp. A few degrees is all it takes. That helps prevent condensation, which is the root of your problems. The black on your mahogany may not be full-on rot, just discoloration from moisture. Dry it out and, on a warm day, sand or scrape it until it looks better to you and coat with epoxy. Don't give up on the epoxy, just make sure it's protected with three or more coats of good spar varnish for UV protection. Arwen is going to be fine. Boats are tough
Brandon
Not too bad. Arwen is still one of the prettiest boats out there. If it were my boat and the rot was only a few mm deep I would just plane the gunwale down; oil or varnish and go from there. If the rot was deeper I would just replace the gunwale which from the looks of it (I don't have a navigator) doesn't seem to be too hard. If rot was in more internal structural members I would probably try the whole drying out; drilling, filling with epoxy etc... work I've heard about; but don't necessarily have a lot of faith in...
I've heard that one can prevent rot by soaking wood in ethyl glycol (Anti freeze). Ethyl glycol basically kills any organism known to man including mould and rot bacteria. You can glue on top of it; but I personally think that working with wood, soaked into stuff that pretty much kills all kinds of hardy small organisms, is a bad idea. As far as the mould goes: Usually a simple washing with a bleach solution will nip that in the bud for a while.
Hajo
Steve,
It looks to me as if you have wrapped the boat too tightly in the tarp and in so doing trapped moisture. I would try fitting a framework which would keep the tarp away from the boat and allow air to circulate. It also looks, from the photos that the mould is pretty much on the surface. It can be scrubbed off. Quaternary ammonia would be my first choice for killing it. Most commercial and home remedies use chlorine, usually from sodium hyperchlorite (Clorox). (Do not mix them. Use one or the other but not both at the same time). Once the mould is removed, keeping the surfaces clean and dry should be all that is needed, but if you were really anal about it you could get an anti fungal agent at the paint store and mix it into paint. Some folks have used automotive anti-freeze as a fungus inhibitor with apparent success. I am not convinced from your sample of one, that epoxy coating was the problem. I like "boat soup" concocted from turpentine, linseed oil and pine tar, but that isn't perfect either. I'm sure others will have interesting things to add. Good luck, and please keep us posted.
Paul
I like Pauls answer, Steve but would add this: if epoxy was the only coating on your gunwale, it may have degraded from UV exposure, thus allowing moisture in. You really need to coat exposed epoxy with varnish or better yet, just varnish and leave the epoxy for gluing or laminating. Arwen does set the standard by which all other Navigators are judged.
Chuck
Steve,
I've had a look at the blog; here's my tuppenworth.
Start by looking at the causes. We've had pretty extreme weather so far in the South West, so boats in outside storage are going to have had a tough time. Looking at the amount of mould you have, I think that you probably have not allowed enough air to circulate under the tarps. The rot on the gunwales tends to confirm this as I suspect that this has happened where the tarp has been stretched fairly tightly - yet still loose enough so that the wind caused it to rub on the wood and so abrading the surface. So, try to raise the tarp off the hull. I use a simple ridge pole made from plastic gutter downpipe then weight the sides of the tarp down with breeze blocks and secure the ends to the trailer hitch (bow) and gudgeons (stern) with bungies. This seems to have stood up so far this winter and I have, touch wood, no mould or rot. You also need to make sure that all compartments in the hull that can be opened are - and left open to allow air to circulate.
Not so sure what to do about the rot - I've never had it that bad and have always dealt with it by drying out sanding back and then re coating. Some people advise a mild solution of borax to kill off the spores before doing anything. I have also heard that there is a water based epoxy call (I think) Resolcote, which is designed for use to stabilise rotten wood and can be used on wet wood. I've never used it myself, but it got a good review in Watercraft magazine.
As to coating - I use Burgess Hydrosol myself, because that was what was on the boat when I bought it. It's pretty good but I don't think that it would work on top of epoxy treated wood; it is designed to sink into the pores of bare wood. I suspect that your options are varnish or paint.
Sorry - not a full answer to your woes, but hopefully helpful.
Good luck !
Nick
Steve, you will probably hear this a lot, it's all about moisture. You need to either remove it or prevent it from being inside the boat. I notice you are using the blue tarps. We call them "poly tarps" here in the US, and they've spread like a blue plague across the world. They work OK to keep water out, for about one season. After that the weave loosens up and water can infiltrate. The UV causes these tarps to degrade quickly, and they won't last long. When I see the snow sitting on your tarp, I know that some moisture is wicking its way through to the interior. While I am building my Navigator, it's under one of those portable steel framed "car port" covers, then I cover it with a poly tarp to keep out wind driven rain and dust. Most of the work of shedding the precipitation is done by the framed cover. With all the bare wood I don't want any water in there! If you can't use one of those framed covers (no space, no money, neighbourhood regulations, etc.) you'll want to invest in a better cover. A friend of mine spent some good money on a custom made blue canvas boat cover. The lady doing the work specialized in boat covers. It keeps out that water really well. If you can't do anything else for a better cover, you need to work really hard to get rid of that moisture. Drying elements like the previously mentioned light bulb, or marine dehydrators (just a low wattage heater) work for enclosed spaces. I'd be worried about the air boxes under the seats and the forward compartments. Nothing dries like moving air, and a small fan circulating air will dry stuff out faster than heat. Since I build stuff, I am putting together a small system with a 12V solar panel to drive one or more computer muffin fans. This can circulate the air all day long, without any load on my power bill. Failing all of that, you may need to get out to the boat after every time it rains or snows and open up the boat to let air circulate and/or dry it out by hand. Isn't it funny, though? We need to spend all this effort to keep them dry so we can take them out and dunk them in a large body of water. As for the hubs on the trailer, I suspect its exposure to the local elements causing the rust. Maybe some loose covers (keep air circulation!) over the wheels to keep direct precip. off. Either that or wire brush them and repaint once a season.
Good luck.
Its only slight Steve, a combination of things are working there, one is that epoxy is very poor in resistance to UV from sunlight, and any epoxy coating should have several coats of marine varnish over it. To fix the rub rails I'd take any soft or stained areas out with a router and scarf in a new piece. Note that the wood that you have used here wont behave in the same way as that nice silvery wood ( I did read your blog but forget what it was, but some hardwoods do that, and very few if any softwoods) so it needs the protection of some form of coating. I am a fan of oil based marine spar varnish, definitely not polyurethanes. The mould, get some bleach concentrate, and wipe it all down before it gets a real grip on the surfaces. Looking over the issues, I'd say you need better air circulation, it’s a common problem but warm moist air trapped in a boats structure will foster mould and rot, if you can circulate air then the moisture is carried away. Yes I know its winter, yes I know "warm" is not a part of winter, but under that tarp with a little sunshine on it you'd be surprised.
John Welsford
You could probably use something like this: (A solar powered fan)
Note that the reviews are negative; but that's people wanting to use it to cool themselves of! For a boat this should just be adequate...http://www.amazon.com/Solar-Powered-Window-Ventilator-Removable/dp/B000SZV8I0
Hajo
Hi Steve-
Had to wait for Mike to come in for lunch from building the Scamps. I knew household chlorine bleach mixed with water would kill the moulds, so he agrees with everyone else, although he says you can actually buy a spray on mould inhibitor for boats. The rusted tire rims on your trailer need to be galvanized to keep the salt water from rusting them. He says to just take off the trailer and take to a shop for galvanizing, not expensive. Third thing, the rot. He said he might replace the gunwales if it was too bad or you could use a product called Git-Rot, which is an epoxy product. He says you can clean the wood, then inject the Git-Rot into the rotted area, it will seep into the pores of the wood and replace them. The final result will be as hard as the original wood. Mike told me to look up a website for you, www.jamestowndistributors.com sells this product. While looking it up I found another called "EndRot" which is apparently an epoxy product, as they were listed with www.systemsthree.com. Mike said to do all this, dry it out and paint or varnish. Epoxy is not a good sealer for wood and must be painted. Hope this helps.
Jackie Monies (for Mike)
Steve
If you dry out the affected area then apply a very watery (thinned with acetone) epoxy coat then apply thicker coats progressively you should be rid of the rot and restore the epoxy protection. All the timber that I have ever used for boat building has had similar treatment (one coat of thinned epoxy) if it has to over-winter under plastic covers. If properly re-applied before painting it makes a very effective wood primer. I have also used the above treatment to restore irreplaceable rotted timbers on classic boats. Nicks remarks re ventilation are also to be taken seriously
George
What a fantastic bunch of people - its this boat building community that keeps me inspired
Steve
Hi Steve,
I think all of your problems would be solved if you had a small heat source inside Arwen. An old-fashioned 60-watt light bulb would do, a small ceramic heater with a little fan and a thermostat would be better. There is also something called a "Goldenrod" that is a little low wattage heater that might be a little safer than a light bulb. The idea is that you keep the inside of Arwen a little warmer than the outside temp. A few degrees is all it takes. That helps prevent condensation, which is the root of your problems. The black on your mahogany may not be full-on rot, just discoloration from moisture. Dry it out and, on a warm day, sand or scrape it until it looks better to you and coat with epoxy. Don't give up on the epoxy, just make sure it's protected with three or more coats of good spar varnish for UV protection. Arwen is going to be fine. Boats are tough
Brandon
Not too bad. Arwen is still one of the prettiest boats out there. If it were my boat and the rot was only a few mm deep I would just plane the gunwale down; oil or varnish and go from there. If the rot was deeper I would just replace the gunwale which from the looks of it (I don't have a navigator) doesn't seem to be too hard. If rot was in more internal structural members I would probably try the whole drying out; drilling, filling with epoxy etc... work I've heard about; but don't necessarily have a lot of faith in...
I've heard that one can prevent rot by soaking wood in ethyl glycol (Anti freeze). Ethyl glycol basically kills any organism known to man including mould and rot bacteria. You can glue on top of it; but I personally think that working with wood, soaked into stuff that pretty much kills all kinds of hardy small organisms, is a bad idea. As far as the mould goes: Usually a simple washing with a bleach solution will nip that in the bud for a while.
Hajo
Steve,
It looks to me as if you have wrapped the boat too tightly in the tarp and in so doing trapped moisture. I would try fitting a framework which would keep the tarp away from the boat and allow air to circulate. It also looks, from the photos that the mould is pretty much on the surface. It can be scrubbed off. Quaternary ammonia would be my first choice for killing it. Most commercial and home remedies use chlorine, usually from sodium hyperchlorite (Clorox). (Do not mix them. Use one or the other but not both at the same time). Once the mould is removed, keeping the surfaces clean and dry should be all that is needed, but if you were really anal about it you could get an anti fungal agent at the paint store and mix it into paint. Some folks have used automotive anti-freeze as a fungus inhibitor with apparent success. I am not convinced from your sample of one, that epoxy coating was the problem. I like "boat soup" concocted from turpentine, linseed oil and pine tar, but that isn't perfect either. I'm sure others will have interesting things to add. Good luck, and please keep us posted.
Paul
I like Pauls answer, Steve but would add this: if epoxy was the only coating on your gunwale, it may have degraded from UV exposure, thus allowing moisture in. You really need to coat exposed epoxy with varnish or better yet, just varnish and leave the epoxy for gluing or laminating. Arwen does set the standard by which all other Navigators are judged.
Chuck
Steve,
I've had a look at the blog; here's my tuppenworth.
Start by looking at the causes. We've had pretty extreme weather so far in the South West, so boats in outside storage are going to have had a tough time. Looking at the amount of mould you have, I think that you probably have not allowed enough air to circulate under the tarps. The rot on the gunwales tends to confirm this as I suspect that this has happened where the tarp has been stretched fairly tightly - yet still loose enough so that the wind caused it to rub on the wood and so abrading the surface. So, try to raise the tarp off the hull. I use a simple ridge pole made from plastic gutter downpipe then weight the sides of the tarp down with breeze blocks and secure the ends to the trailer hitch (bow) and gudgeons (stern) with bungies. This seems to have stood up so far this winter and I have, touch wood, no mould or rot. You also need to make sure that all compartments in the hull that can be opened are - and left open to allow air to circulate.
Not so sure what to do about the rot - I've never had it that bad and have always dealt with it by drying out sanding back and then re coating. Some people advise a mild solution of borax to kill off the spores before doing anything. I have also heard that there is a water based epoxy call (I think) Resolcote, which is designed for use to stabilise rotten wood and can be used on wet wood. I've never used it myself, but it got a good review in Watercraft magazine.
As to coating - I use Burgess Hydrosol myself, because that was what was on the boat when I bought it. It's pretty good but I don't think that it would work on top of epoxy treated wood; it is designed to sink into the pores of bare wood. I suspect that your options are varnish or paint.
Sorry - not a full answer to your woes, but hopefully helpful.
Good luck !
Nick
Steve, you will probably hear this a lot, it's all about moisture. You need to either remove it or prevent it from being inside the boat. I notice you are using the blue tarps. We call them "poly tarps" here in the US, and they've spread like a blue plague across the world. They work OK to keep water out, for about one season. After that the weave loosens up and water can infiltrate. The UV causes these tarps to degrade quickly, and they won't last long. When I see the snow sitting on your tarp, I know that some moisture is wicking its way through to the interior. While I am building my Navigator, it's under one of those portable steel framed "car port" covers, then I cover it with a poly tarp to keep out wind driven rain and dust. Most of the work of shedding the precipitation is done by the framed cover. With all the bare wood I don't want any water in there! If you can't use one of those framed covers (no space, no money, neighbourhood regulations, etc.) you'll want to invest in a better cover. A friend of mine spent some good money on a custom made blue canvas boat cover. The lady doing the work specialized in boat covers. It keeps out that water really well. If you can't do anything else for a better cover, you need to work really hard to get rid of that moisture. Drying elements like the previously mentioned light bulb, or marine dehydrators (just a low wattage heater) work for enclosed spaces. I'd be worried about the air boxes under the seats and the forward compartments. Nothing dries like moving air, and a small fan circulating air will dry stuff out faster than heat. Since I build stuff, I am putting together a small system with a 12V solar panel to drive one or more computer muffin fans. This can circulate the air all day long, without any load on my power bill. Failing all of that, you may need to get out to the boat after every time it rains or snows and open up the boat to let air circulate and/or dry it out by hand. Isn't it funny, though? We need to spend all this effort to keep them dry so we can take them out and dunk them in a large body of water. As for the hubs on the trailer, I suspect its exposure to the local elements causing the rust. Maybe some loose covers (keep air circulation!) over the wheels to keep direct precip. off. Either that or wire brush them and repaint once a season.
Good luck.
Its only slight Steve, a combination of things are working there, one is that epoxy is very poor in resistance to UV from sunlight, and any epoxy coating should have several coats of marine varnish over it. To fix the rub rails I'd take any soft or stained areas out with a router and scarf in a new piece. Note that the wood that you have used here wont behave in the same way as that nice silvery wood ( I did read your blog but forget what it was, but some hardwoods do that, and very few if any softwoods) so it needs the protection of some form of coating. I am a fan of oil based marine spar varnish, definitely not polyurethanes. The mould, get some bleach concentrate, and wipe it all down before it gets a real grip on the surfaces. Looking over the issues, I'd say you need better air circulation, it’s a common problem but warm moist air trapped in a boats structure will foster mould and rot, if you can circulate air then the moisture is carried away. Yes I know its winter, yes I know "warm" is not a part of winter, but under that tarp with a little sunshine on it you'd be surprised.
John Welsford
You could probably use something like this: (A solar powered fan)
Note that the reviews are negative; but that's people wanting to use it to cool themselves of! For a boat this should just be adequate...http://www.amazon.com/Solar-Powered-Window-Ventilator-Removable/dp/B000SZV8I0
Hajo
Hi Steve-
Had to wait for Mike to come in for lunch from building the Scamps. I knew household chlorine bleach mixed with water would kill the moulds, so he agrees with everyone else, although he says you can actually buy a spray on mould inhibitor for boats. The rusted tire rims on your trailer need to be galvanized to keep the salt water from rusting them. He says to just take off the trailer and take to a shop for galvanizing, not expensive. Third thing, the rot. He said he might replace the gunwales if it was too bad or you could use a product called Git-Rot, which is an epoxy product. He says you can clean the wood, then inject the Git-Rot into the rotted area, it will seep into the pores of the wood and replace them. The final result will be as hard as the original wood. Mike told me to look up a website for you, www.jamestowndistributors.com sells this product. While looking it up I found another called "EndRot" which is apparently an epoxy product, as they were listed with www.systemsthree.com. Mike said to do all this, dry it out and paint or varnish. Epoxy is not a good sealer for wood and must be painted. Hope this helps.
Jackie Monies (for Mike)
Steve
If you dry out the affected area then apply a very watery (thinned with acetone) epoxy coat then apply thicker coats progressively you should be rid of the rot and restore the epoxy protection. All the timber that I have ever used for boat building has had similar treatment (one coat of thinned epoxy) if it has to over-winter under plastic covers. If properly re-applied before painting it makes a very effective wood primer. I have also used the above treatment to restore irreplaceable rotted timbers on classic boats. Nicks remarks re ventilation are also to be taken seriously
George
What a fantastic bunch of people - its this boat building community that keeps me inspired
Steve
5 comments:
Steve, what a horrible surprise you must have had. The answers others have given probably give you enough to work with, and most of them are from much more experienced people than me, but I would like to add that the actual cycle of freezing and thawing that the boat experienced this Winter may be the difference between a successful inspection and a horrible fright. I wouldn't blame epoxy coatings- they need to be protected from UV anyway, and if they were compromised at the edges enough for some moisture penetration, and then that moisture froze, the timber would experience a range of differential expansions that would open any edges up further. The water would have made some of the timber and its coatings expand. I guess this is obvious...but I'd hate to see you think too poorly of the epoxy when it may not be the epoxy's fault.
Of course the obvious solution is to convince your good wife to let you keep Arwen in the bedroom or kitchen over winter. None of us would have a problem with that, surely.
hello robert - thanks for the coments - sound analysis as always - thank you. I'm not against epoxy per se...its great stuff - I'm just not convinced about it as a sealer on exposed edges. I managed to convince my wife to dig out the driveway so i can reverse Arwen in more easily - and that's it - I used up all favours on that one - trying to suggest I get a car port built out the front window - will fall on dead ground......as will I if I suggest it!
steve
Steve, what about one of those temporary garages, ally frame and plastic tarp covering, I've been thinking about one prices go from £150 to £1000, but the air space inside should provide good ventilation and you can store it away in the shed in summer.
Sounds like you have plenty of advice already, on the black mould spots on inside surfaces I've had those on various boats seems to be the salt crystals that have settled on the surfaces and attract the damp, normally I've washed them off with Jif Flash or similar and it's been fine .
Max
hi max - thanks for tips - yeah beginning to think about that actually - can i get one that wont be obvious in the window view etc but that will do the job - jif - good idea - got my work cut out next few days!!!
thanks for input - much appreciated
steve
Valuable information! Looking forward to seeing your notes posted.
Thanks.
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