Following on from my previous post and Facebook pleas for advice
“One of the other key things is to make sure your motor has a fuel hose and tank, so if you have to motor for 45 mins into a gathering gale or whatever you don't suddenly run out of fuel from a top tank as I have seen happen to a mate”. [which is an interesting point as I have a 3.5hp Tohatsu which has an internal tank and I can motor for about 40 minutes on mid revs; and yes I have frequently hung off the back to refuel in wavy conditions – not pleasant]
“Anchor and wait it out; put up mizzen to keep pointing into the wind”
Now over the years John has patiently explained several times how to remove the crease and I have acted upon everything but it still remains and so this now raises tow other questions
1. did the sail maker alter the cut of the sail and I never noticed because I don't know enough about sails?
2. and the more likely - did I do something silly when building Arwen, deviating away from the plans, in such a way to cause this problem?
I am beginning to think the answer is yes to question 2.
Firstly, I built the cockpit coaming about an inch and a half higher than the plans suggested. I'm sure I had a stupid reason at the time for doing so but here is the golden lesson, when you have never built a boat before, NEVER, NEVER deviate from the plans without checking the implications with the designer first (sorry John!). The designer designed it with the coaming height in mind for a reason!!
Secondly, I am now looking for the plans again to check measurements. Comments from Michael and Richard have made me think not only is the cockpit height wrong but that the coaming has come to far forward into the cockpit itself by what looks like three inches or so. So did I forget to cut excess of the deck king plank during the building phase and just put the coaming on without checking? Plausible, given I built it each evening after a long school day and normally didn't start building work until 9pm each night.
At present, I can get plenty of tension on the downhaul but what it does, due to its position, is it pulls the tack away from the mast into the cockpit in order to clear the coaming; and that is the likely cause of the crease.
Now I could put the downhaul halyards down through the deck in front of the mast by attaching a single line to the tack, running it through the deck and then attaching it to the downhaul block and tackle. In this way I could haul the tack down as far as the deck but then I couldnt apply any more tension. if I did this, what other adaptations would I have to make to the top yard halyard attachment point; and to the sprit boom attachment point on the mast?
If anyone has any advice or suggestions on the viability of this or about the possible problem of the crease, do please let me know because I have done something daft and so am not showing off John's brilliant design to best advantage and that isn't fair on him or his amazingly, wonderful boat 'navigator'.
I'm sure I was never this thick or stupid as a mountaineer!!
Tips on what to do next time
Firstly, thank you to all of you who so kindly took the time
to offer advice, tips, words or wisdom and encouragement. They were greatly
appreciated. As a mountaineer and a mountain leader, I always encouraged
students to use hindsight to analyse difficult situations they encountered in
the ‘hills’. So, with this in mind, here is what I have gleaned from your
comments. Now I need to go away and think about it and where necessary, act
upon it. Apologies to anyone who sees their comment somewhat précised or paraphrased.
Why didn’t things work?
The navigator is an amazingly seaworthy boat with a variety
of sail configurations. She is a strong, stable, well built, small open coastal
cruiser in which I have complete faith and trust. In far more capable hands, she
has proven herself on some amazing offshore passages and voyages. People expressed surprise that a Welsford boat
could not sail to weather at about 55-60 deg off the wind and so get me to
another position. Basically, it isn’t the boat! It can do all of that
and so much more. In which case it was me!! So, I handled things badly in some way due to lack of
experience. From what I can remember, things went like this.
The events:
After a couple of severe gusts during which we heeled rather
severely, and with increasing windspeeds and lumpier seas developing, I turned
to windward and ran downwind under mizzen, main and jib and slightly out to sea
to get space from the lee shore that was slightly parallel and ahead of me.
I then managed to
turn head to wind in a trough and dropped the main between lazy jacks and tied
sail up whilst avoiding being sea sick…..a first for me!! Now under jib and
mizzen, I ran further downwind and out to sea slightly whilst I tried to regain
some composure before deciding that such a course was not an option. With
mizzen practically at right angles to the transom, I furled some of the jib.
This course would take me along a rocky coast with few
natural bays or gullies that I could safely get into. I would be in danger of
crossing possible severe over-falls around Start Point and then having to turn
northwards to get onto a broad reach to make the safety of Dartmouth; around 10
miles at least. A mile and a half into the wind behind me were the steep cliffs
at the harbour entrance to where I could make out far calmer water and so
rightly or wrongly that was elected for option.
When I came to tack around, I would get so far and then
stall; or Arwen just wouldn’t make the turn. When I gybed, a similar result
happened. I tried pulling the mizzen base in to help make the turn; backing the
jib; centreboard fully down; centreboard up. I just could not get to head to
wind before being blown sideways at the bow and turned back downwind.
Why might this have happened apart
from my inexperience and incorrect sailing strategies?
Some people suggested it may very well be that the jib and
mizzen don't have enough power to drive the boat to windward when the windage
from the hull is increased due to high angles of heel. As the sails become more
horizontal they lose power, and as the hull becomes more vertical there's more
surface area for the wind to push against.
Add to that the force of the waves striking the windward side of the
boat, and clawing off to windward would certainly have been a challenge.
The boat needs a certain amount of "horsepower" to
overcome the push of the wind on the hull and rig so it can go to
windward. There is a windspeed and sea
state combination where it’s just not possible to do that.
As one person observed “If
you think about the physics, you can see why turning into the wind with only
jib & mizzen would cause problems. At the point where you are beam on,
force is being applied to both ends of the hull, almost a guaranteed stall”.
So, what could I have done differently
– your tips and thoughts
This is where I have plenty to think about and go out and do
so thank you to you all. Suggestions
included:
“To turn upwind in such situation next time, reduce
the lateral force on the bow which was pushing it away from the wind direction,
by using reefed main and mizzen only”.
“Difficult
rudder control suggests imbalanced sails so just the reefed main would be
better option as there are less sails to deal with and it makes running and
reaching easier. A mizzen has tendency to head boat up into wind, so use just
reefed main”.
“When tacking, release the main (or mizzen
sheet) and back wind the jib to allow the bow to come through the eye of the
wind? Only when on the other tack release the back-winded jib and sheet in the
mizzen”.
“Drop the main
and put up a small trysail?”
“Think of your mizzen as an ariel rudder. Take
all your sails down, she should sit more or less head to wind. Ease the mizzen out and she will bear away
downwind. To sail towards the wind, sheet the mizzen in and then sheet in the
headsail. If you were in a lumpy sea
with a lot of wind you probably didn’t have enough power to close haul with
just a headsail and mizzen. Make sure
you always have a lot of sea-room and try sailing “full and bye” a few points
off the wind which will give you more speed.
When you are on the move, water passing over your rudder will allow you
to tack, choose your wave, try backing the headsail and mizzen if possible to
help you round. To gybe, let the mizzen
out, again make sure you have sea-room”
“Deep reef the
main and sail with headsail, main and mizzen. Reef early and keep to windward
with loads of sea room to allow for heavy weather manoeuvring”.
“Fully down centreboard would be my choice
in those conditions”
“In winds from
16-20 knots hold sheets in hands, not in jammers to let them go fast in case of
a gust and go downwind if possible”.
“Dumping the main and the mizzen and
just tried with your jib would have given a good start. If you didn’t have the
horse power you needed, reef the main and start off again, SLOWLY until you have
the sail area that provides the power you need without being over powered”.
“It helps to
reduce the amount of centre-board in stronger winds when sailing upwind as it
balances the boat better. The greater
leeway you generate is balanced by reduced heel, leading to better speed
through the water which then makes manoeuvring easier. Also, with reduced sail
the boat will become unbalanced to a degree as the centre of effort changes
position, so adjusting the board can correct this. Once the boat is set up with one of the rig
options sail along and feel the weight on the helm and adjust the board to see
what difference that makes”.
“You will need to have main up with triple
reef. And storm jib up to go upwind...and that is if the boat is not
overpowered, with your size and weight, I think in those conditions it is
better to run. Should you have no space (lee shore) your thinking was correct
and jibing would have been the way to turn the boat. If the speed hinders you,
you can throw some rope out the transom to act as a sea anchor. Also, a bucket
well tied will do. Hove to [was another option to consider]”
“When the wind
shifts like that, go straight to jib and mizzen. The wind you had was too much for even a
double reefed main. Then, look for
shelter downwind or on a beam reach.
With that much wind, and leeway, a beam reach is all you can
expect. Tacking under jib and mizzen is
not easy even in ideal conditions. Gybe
all the way around instead. I think I'd have run downwind under jib and mizzen
to the closest thing resembling shelter”.
“Your mizzen has a huge impact on your
ability to tack or gybe, especially if you don't have speed. When tacking, as
you come head to wind, loosen the mizzen sheet a bit or she can stall you out
head to wind, then retrim after you are through the tack. Also, don't loosen
your jib sheet to soon as you want that power for as long as it's available. In
some conditions, I'll let the jib backwind
(fill on the backside) to push the nose across before I loosen the
sheet. If you do that, be prepared to quickly release the old working sheet and
trim in the other side as you come through the tack”.
“Running
downwind or on a broad reach, you want to make sure your sails are out far
enough or the boat will want to come back to windward. Get the mizzen out
perpendicular to the transom. When gybing, just grab the foot of the mizzen and
pull it across without touching the sheet. That moves it quickly and helps you
finish the gybe. You definitely want the jib out when sailing downwind. If you
end up in irons after sorting out a reef or making other adjustments, loosen
the mizzen sheet, grab the foot of the sail and pull it in towards the transom
while pushing the tiller the to the same side and the boat will quickly back
you off the wind”.
“The
center-board is key as that's your pivot point for the power generated by your
jib and mizzen. If that wasn't down, it's tough to turn the boat!!”
“You need
lots of boat speed ... but at the same time you are reefed down, so have less
sail up and so less power. Try bearing off, getting the boat going as fast as
possible, pick a flat-ish bit of sea and then sail her round. Also, make sure
the plate is fully down”.
“Try "backing" the mizzen.
I sometimes lash mine far over to leward before an attempt to cross the wind.
Then, if you can at least get her up dead into the wind, or near enough, the
mizzen will do the rest, but prevent
getting caught in irons. Once the jib backs, you're sure to complete your tack.
Just be ready to free up that mizzen once the tack is done! *You can practice
this at anchor with a bit of wind, lash the mizzen to one side or the other and
watch as the bow swings opposite the "backed" mizzen. This is also a
great way to sail out the anchor with control”.
“Drop the main. Straight away
preferably into lazy jacks. Immediately you have a balanced rig with centre of
effort lower. Ease the jib and mizzen and head off away from danger e.g. the
rocks. If still being tested by the wind, wind in a bit of jib... If still over
powered with that rig, it is probably time to go straight to the motor”. “While of course it's good not to rely on your motor, there's nothing
wrong with using it when need to!” “Don’t think it’s a failure if you have to
use your outboard for a bit of extra power, to push you through those waves
when going to windward, unless you have a mean machine racing yacht, beating to
windward in heavy weather is always a misery, only the purist won’t pop the
engine in forward gear with a few revs on to keep the hull moving through the
water”. “Would have put the engine on as soon as I realised I didn't have
full control of the boat. I know you were trying not to use the engine all
summer but surely the reason you carry an engine is to be an alternative means
of propulsion when sailing isn't working and rowing not possible. This was such
a situation. Well done for making the right call and thanks for sharing”.
Follow up actions to consider
1. “Consider buying yourself a storm jib. With
a storm jib, a heavily reefed main and some practice you’ll be ready for the
Straights of Magellan”. đŸ™‚
2.
“Check the weather forecast more carefully and
look at a number of different sources of weather information”
3. “Have a contingency plan for such an
eventuality – know which bays you can run downwind to”
4.
“On a calmer day try all the different rig
options to see how well they balance.
This will give you more knowledge on how the boat reacts, thus what is
best for tougher conditions. Also you
will have a few options for adjusting the shape of the sails, which will also
affect the balance and power, so worth adjusting those as well”.
5.
“Start
sailing and trying out your boat in days with marginal weather. When its hairy
enough but not disastrous conditions and feel your boat. Start challenging
yourself.4. Take this as a learning experience and do what u r doing, re live
it analyse and ask yourself what u did right or wrong. Then when out in those
rough days test yourself under controlled conditions”.
6.
“Practice reefing in good weather until you can
do it in a few seconds without thinking”.
7. “Seems to me sailing in lighter winds with
the various sail configurations will help you learn how your boat handles. Next
time you'll be calmer, because you recognise that calm is the key to making
everything go smoother”.
Other points people made:
“One of the other key things is to make sure your motor has a fuel hose and tank, so if you have to motor for 45 mins into a gathering gale or whatever you don't suddenly run out of fuel from a top tank as I have seen happen to a mate”. [which is an interesting point as I have a 3.5hp Tohatsu which has an internal tank and I can motor for about 40 minutes on mid revs; and yes I have frequently hung off the back to refuel in wavy conditions – not pleasant]
“Anchor and wait it out; put up mizzen to keep pointing into the wind”
My thanks to you all – it has been a really helpful discussion with lots of points to consider. Thank you to all of you below for your tips, reassurance, encouragement. Greatly appreciated and I will let you all know how I get on over the next few weeks.
Thanks to
Bill Denis Roger David LJ Ken Lisa Nick Kevin Tim John Mike
Michael JW Duncan Stuart Quecon Ed Alexia Graham Chris DK
Patrick Tim Joel Paul Dana Albert Mattias Ignacio Doug Richard Justin
Jim Thomas Melissa Cornelius Grldtnt Geoff Seb Scott Wade
And one other conundrum!!
Michael and Richard, looking at a photo of Arwen spotted this.......the perpetual crease I always have in the sail.
“Do you have a loop around the mast at the tack? it looks like the boom
is pulling the bottom front corner of the sail away from the mast. Put a loop around the mast before the sprit boom is
fully tensioned. That is very likely what the problem is ... it is a huge gap and will be altering the angle at the
throat so you get the crease. Sail corners have to be kept close to the spars
they are attached to. In the photo it looks like you have the downhaul going
into the cockpit ... it should be close to the mast. But just pull the tack
forward to get rid of the gap first and see what happens. Basically the throat
of the sail is cut with a certain angle. If the angle is distorted,
particularly reduced, by either the yard angling lower (usually downhaul
tension is inadequate which you have looked at already) or the tack moving
back, then get that crease. The sprit boom is very powerful for pulling the
clew back and a lot of that tension will be along the foot”.
Well here are the photographs in question:
14 comments:
Hi Steve, your tack downhaul is supposed to be attached to your deck, not your seat top. See plan sheet NV11, on the far right of the sheet there is a diagram. It shows a tack downhaul fitting RF95 Deck loop (saddle) mounted on the deck between the coaming and mast, 55mm aft of the mast and 42mm to starboard. That's where your 3-part block and tackle attaches from the fitting to the tack on the mainsail, along with a parrell with parrell beads from the tack around the mast. Looks like your downhaul goes inside the cockpit down to the seat top and that is wrong. Do you have room between coaming and mast to add the fitting?
yep - that is what I suspected - I got it wrong there or got the coaming in wrong place. Yeah I can get a deck loop between mast and coaming with no problem. First thing I do asap is to sort out that and see what difference it makes. trying to visualise this in my head without the plans at the moment - where does the downhaul halyard then go if i want to bring it back to me in the cockpit? is it down through the deck and around a block attached to the thwart and then along the side of the centre case?
And thanks Joel.....again!! Appreciated.
If you want the downhaul to lead aft, yes, you could route it down through the deck as you described. Or possibly down on the cockpit side of the coaming to the thwart and then aft, if it fits that way. The plans call for a self-cleating downhaul block. A cleat nearby on deck would do if you chose not to lead it aft. Does it need to lead aft? You'd still need to go forward to reef/de-reef.
Hi Steve. I’m running the down haul through the deck to a turning block on the seat top, then back to a cleat mounted along the side of the centerboard case near the cockpit. I re-enforced the area under the seat where I mounted the turning block.
I have seen pics of Arwen before and always thought the main sail shape awful. Mizzen looks fine. Jib stay looks a bit saggy. These things are critical especially in high winds. If I were you once these issues are sorted I would find a large safe bay or harbour and practice in a force 6+ until you are confident in handling her.
Angus, I'm a poor sailor but a damned better mountaineer although the knees have gone and I'm no longer anywhere like fit - so I guess in a sailing analogy - i'm somewhat saggy, baggy and awful :).
Tim, in your arrangement, where is the downhaul block/tackle arrangement situated? Above deck? Below deck? Beyond the turning block? Not got one?
Joel - good question as always - why do I want it come aft? My reasoning was I could make all sail adjustments (hahaha - given I know nothing about that topic clearly :) ) from the cockpit without going forward. So all sheets and most halyards (jib, mainsheet, topping lift, snotter and mizzen arrive (with exception of mizzen) down along the centrecase sides to cleats and cams arranged along the aft lip of the centre thwarts. Consequently, the only time I ever have to go forward is in order to reef.
The jib halyard goes through the deck around a turning block and gets tied off on a cleat on the front thwart (where I have strengthened it).
The saggy jib stay is because I keep forgetting to tighten and secure the 'bobstay'(?) blocks below the bowsprit and because arthritis in my hands is beginning to take hold and so I don't always quite have the strength to haul any halyards which don't have helpful block and tackle attached if than makes sense.
The reason I have a block bobstay is because of the way the boat sits on the trailer and because my daughter when she was very young loved going to the deck to tension it for some reason she has never been able to work out or explain. Basically, I never quite get the tension for the stay - mainly due to forgetfulness.
I think the other issue with mainsail shape is I have never fully understood or worked out the intricacies of using a sprit boom. Or if I have, ever enough to unconsciously internalise. I learned to sail in wayfayers, bahias and laser 1's. Sail trimming on Arwen is a mystery which I have yet to unravel.
Most days, to be frankly honest, I'm a) surprised she and I actually move b) am thrilled we actually do move in a direction I want c) overjoyed that we actually manage to get places without hitting anything or anyone!
Hi Steve. Sorry to upset the party but I do not think the crease problem is due to where the down-haul is located. Yes you have it further aft of the mast but my understanding is that all that means is the mainsail will 'pivot' on the halyard to compensate. Remember these sails are not in fixed tracks nor looped to the mast. They can and do move dynamically. I have still not got rid of my crease problem in spite of many hours making modifications and developing new theories. I had got to the stage of checking that the sail was actually made as per plan. More work will be done on the crease problem with a sailmaker in the next two months, and JW if necessary - if I crack it I will let you know. I am determined to get to the bottom of it. My experience is that the better the sails set the better the control, stability and performance of a boat at all times, especially in heavy weather (safety). On two occasions I have had to deal with heavy weather in Navigator. I was very impressed with how the Standing Lug-sail spilt the gusts, preventing excess heeling and keeping the boat safe. Also, virtually no water came inside, it stayed outside where it should be! However, because of the crease the lower part of the main does not set properly and consequently there is less drive than there could be. Better drive, more control, less heeling, more options, safer. Better controlled drive means too that the centerboard is more effective as a pivot-point and generates more lift. Airflow and water flow are necessary for the sails and underwater bits to function as-designed.
Cheers, Alan NZ
Alan, you have made my day. i keep thinking it is me and my poor seamanship understanding of sail trimming but to hear from someone else with the same issue is very reassuring. I have tried all sorts of things in the past to no avail. Arwen's sail does spill wind quite easily and whilst drive forward normally isn't a big issue - I could have done with it last week but in fairness I wasn't using mainsail only jib and mizzen - so separate issues really.
How have you got your downhaul on sail arranged? I sense I need to sort out that bit irrespective of whether it helps crease disappear or not.
Joel, Tim, Alan, thanks for the help and input - really appreciated
A picture is worth........... Can I send you some pictures? I refuse to be on Facebook and any sort of 'social' media. Email okay?
Alan.
alan, sjparke44@googlemail.com
w.r.t the crease i'm no expert for sure, but my opinion would be too much outhaul tension on the boom... I think you're over tightening... loose off an inch or so and see what it looks like, conversely that should also allow you to get extra tension on the luff/up-haul as you're not fighting that tension crease??
aah Steve, that is definitely worth a try - thanks for the tip
I'm going to have to write all this down- so much to try next time out on the water - scary stuff
anyway - good to hear from you and hope you are well
Tack of the sail need to move forward.
It should be possible to lace the luff below the throat to the mast.
One solution would be to make the mast longer. That would allow you to lift the gaff, and then the tack.
Every navigator is rigged different. Think of Johns sail plan as a starting point, and then make it work for your situation.
thanks richard. mast length isnt really an option I want to go down but only today I moved the sail peak further up the yard thus gaining around 9 inches which I suspect will lift the tack of the sail up that amount lower down. at least I hope so
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